What About Alcoholics Anonymous and Cannabis
When I see a patient who abuses Methamphetamine’s, I feel good about giving them a recommendation in an effort to practice “Harm Reduction”. This form of treatment is growing in favor and is even now accepted by many substance abuse specialists.
So, why would AA be so against allowing medical cannabis? I would personally insist upon it being “Medical” Cannabis at the start to try keep the lid on the entire concept blowing up. However, allowing “recreational” users at the meetings would just be too much a political challenge.
Anyway, why not try having some more medical cannabis friendly AA meetings? What do you guys think?
Would there be any interest in having GreenBridge Medical host such a meeting? Perhaps one or more substance abuse specialists might join us?
I volunteer my office and my time. Anyone interested?
28 Responses to “What About Alcoholics Anonymous and Cannabis”
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Thanks for sharing your perspective. I would add one other thing. As AA does promote rigorous honesty, how can the organization of AA condone patients, many, many patients who use cannabis being forced to lie?
I have an issue with this as it promotes hypocrisy and people being forced to be less than honest with regard to a huge and very important issue.
AA has a singleness of purpose. To help alcoholics to recover from alcoholism. 3rd tradition, outside issues and rigorous honesty. As mentioned before lots of us have to be on narcotics and benzos and I would feel much better with mmj. These pills treat single problems and the mmj at least for me makes my body and mind settle down and I can be present in the moment.
I was one who used to be against it until I was injured and weighed the pros and cons.I would no more go to a meeting and flaunt it than I would tempt my bros with pills. Its an AA meeting and while I`m there I speak in terms of alcohol and sometimes doctor prescribed pills if it comes up. For sure have a sponsor that knows and understands and is not just a pothead playing the system. my .02
My personal position is clearly that you should take your medical cannabis. The issue usually with cannabis is that you have to smoke or eat it, neither of which is ideal in your setting; the smoking because of the obvious, the edibles because they are rarely predictable and you just DO NOT want too much IF ANY “high”.
There is no, however, a solution. If you use a cannabis tincture, as I have written about many times, that is rich in CBD, or Cannabidiol, you can be totally private, non-smoking and treat your pain and anxiety WITHOUT getting stoned ONE BIT. If you are in the LA area, it might be worthwhile for you to make an appointment to see me to discuss further in private. Allan
This has become a issue of great inner conflict for me lately. I just celebrated one year of sobriety. I am a Vet involved with my V.A. hospital and am being treated for T.B.I. I received while in service that has led to chronic depression, anxiety, mood disorder, etc. I have been on a plethora of various anti-depressants and anti-psychotics and I just spent the last two weeks holed up in my apartment because my symptoms of depression are just so debilitating I cannot go anywhere or do anything. I have become desperate and now am thinking about using medical marijuana. I want to continue with my group, with my sponsor and now I am sponsoring another, but I am deathly afraid of “going back”. This is the longest I have been able to put together, but I am just a mess. I used to use marijuana at times and it helped, but I was not “sober”. Now i know I could get the MMJ card, as I had one before, but I don’t know what to do! I live across the street from the Alano Club and do everything I can to be a part of the program and REALLy believe in A.A. It has really saved my life. I appreciate all the input here, but I don’t know what to do.
Any feedback?
The several patients I have had with true plant allergies to cannabis have done well by either using tinctures or actually “vaping” tinctures by using one of the new e-tok deals. The allergy is generally to the actual plant material and not the terpenes. You can be certain, if you are in the LA area and pick up one of the new CO2 extracted tinctures which have all plant material removed.
Yes, I totally agree. It is a very important issue. Now “dual disorders” which still of course exist, is something much different when cannabis is involved. At least it has the chance to be something very different.
Instead of dual diagnoses, let’s change the discussion to harm reduction using cannabis. I have spoken about this many times and many others have; I think there is little doubt that if done in a reasonable manner, much harm reduction can easily be achieved with cannabis.
This is an important topic. Too often the focus of AA members are on their opinion of what sobriety is. I have seen many alcoholics suffer through mental illnesses and have lost friends to suicide. I have bipolar and went through multiple hospitalizations and a suicide attempt. My final day at a 70+ a year job, I was so high off of Thorazine, I was useless. I hadn’t taken a drink in 22 years. A year after starting medical marijuana, I still haven’t taken a drink.
I have a relationship with a power greater than myself and I don’t have a desire to take a drink. What i dont have is a desire to talk about ” not drinking”. I have an AA book so I don’t feel the Need to go to a meeting. But others may not be as fortunate.
The frustrating thing is that this is a “policy” rather than a true foundation of the program. It originated during a time when AA was facing what has been called “dual addiction” and it seemed innocent enough. Of course you don’t want potheads and speed freaks collecting 10 year chips when the honest hard working drunk is struggling to put together a day!!!! And that was how AA managed to form an opinion on an outside issue AFTER the founder tried LSD to address, of all things, mental illness.
Well, I am sure if the founders, Bill and Bob were around, they would be in favor of medical cannabis once they understood it. I also believe they would have had a much more open mind than currently is in effect
I’ve been going to Aa for over a year and love it. I have not drank since I decided to go in. I also have a marijuana card as I have chronic pain(wa state). I don’t tell anyone about it at Aa though. I would prefer if people don’t talk shit about it at meetings. I have never blacked out and gotten raped from smoking weed. That’s why I’m there. I’d rather marijuana not exclude people from coming to Aa because I really need it to stay safe.
Thanks! I was hoping someone would pick up the ball. :)
Raven and any other AA members with long term sobriety please email me at shagan@shagan.org. I had 6 months of sobriety, smoked herb for 3 weeks, told my support group and sponsor, reset my sobriety date to August 30, 2010 and stopped smoking herb. I am currently working the 12 steps and still continue my sobriety. I am wanting to study and keep tabs on levels of human spirituality and happiness for alcoholics using marijuana. Again please email me at shagan@shagan.org so we can perhaps check in once a week or whenever you are available to chart trends with marijuana use by alcoholics.
This is a very interesting topic. I was sober in AA for 13 years and very active in the program. I moved to NorCal and started working with medical Marijuana. I was going to AA and had a sponsor and still very leary about crossing the MJ divide. I was making MJ cookies and just had to taste them. What happened was it started a whole experimentation period. I now use cookies about once a week and smoke a little a few times a week. I no longer go to AA because I feel conflicted. I do not consider myself sober as I have gotten hella stoned at times and I DO think it affects me from the neck up big time. I have been using MJ for about 7 months now and have not had a drink. I feel as if my time in AA has been fantastic and I have a clear picture of what an alcoholic is and that I am one. I know that to drink for me is suicide. I thank AA for being there when I was in serious trouble and changing my life, however, after 13 years of being deeply entrenced in AA recovery, I feel I’ve got it now. I am not happier or living a more productive life now than I was in AA, and am considering getting back to basics. But one of the things I do like is that I am no longer steeped in judgements, I feel as if I am finding my own way and not living in fear.
I could not agree more. GreenBridge still stands to offer space for a meeting where cannabis can be discussed if we get enough interest.
I am currently in AA and use cannabis medically. I often feel I do not belong there and cannot tell my sponser, who incidentally (and like many of her AA friends, have taken up smoking during sobriety (cigarettes, that is.))
I just feel uncomfortable at AA meetings being that I felt I had a problem wit cannabis yet 6 months of not using it proved to be an experiment in medical need for a few medical conditions I suffer from. I was miserable without and taking more medication without it (not for a high.)
So I am being more conscious of how I use it and yet I feel it is a barrier to me making close friends in AA or even meeting a sober guy. So I just go to AA to stay away from alcohol and don’t really feel like the whole sponsership thing is for me anymore.
Not sure what to do. However, I do feel that while AA has come around regarding people on meds for serious psych issues, they should also come around to the fact that medical marijuana is just another treatment option for many conditions.
I will keep going to meetings however, as they “deal with alcohol.”
I agree 100%. I wonder if there is enough support in the west la area to start a small meeting?
As a medicinal marijuana user I can say that it has benefited me quite a bit. I was diagnosed with Bi-Polar and the substances given to me after getting sober to “calm” me down were so harmful to my body that I had to stop. The marijuana helps the manic episodes but the depression i feel is exacerbated by it. Its hard because the meetings are supposed to be there to help with that but then you are looked badly upon for using a substance because it “alters your state” but for any medicine such as advil, tylenol or even vitamins that “alters your state” as well and it bothers me that because so many people abuse marijuana it is looked at as a bad habit but when used the right way cannibus can serve as a great tool to assist in your recovery from any major substance abuse problem. I wish Dr. Bill was still around because I do feel that the way the group has made a turn into “cultism” and “biasedness” would really kill him. His group was made to help those with problems in way he could, not to segregate, belittle and force ideals on people.
Very good point. In fact, there are now convincing studies that people with substance use issues nearly always have a difference in their left sided frontal lobe.
To further drive the point home, “harm reduction” is the use of certain medications or programs to reduce the risk of the patient’s current damaging substance issue. Cannabis is very successful in achieving this.
The way I see it people abuse substances to begin with because they’re in an altered state-mentally or emotionally unbalanced. The medical evidence is there, certain receptors or what not just do not work properly. Some people simply need medication (mind altering or not) to lead a regular life mentally and emotionally balanced. Words from a book won’t fix your brain receptors, so, by that logic it can be very detrimental to stop medications on relative blind faith.
Thank you for your well considered thoughts. I would agree that if the patients in AA use cannabis to get “ripped” and their level of intoxication is obvious to the point it interferes with their sobriety, it is a huge issue.
On the other hand, “harm reduction” therapy, using Medical Cannabis is a fairly controlled situation I believe is something that can work. For example, if a patient in AA meets with their sponsor or is stoned at a meeting, it is a real issue. In my opinion, it would be
the same issue as a patient using excessive xanax or vicodan, as you mentioned, but taking more than they should be on.
Cannabis, particularly in it’s “tincture”/drop form, is a way to very safely use cannabis without smoking and entirely without getting ripped. I have many patients who use their Sativa Tincture during the day and nobody would know they were taking anything. They are just more in control and much calmer – but with very clear focus. This is how it should be done “medically” and I do believe that Dr. Bob would endorse it.
This subject has come up recently in AA meetings where I live, since medical marijuana is now legal here.
Personally, I don’t see the difference between smoking medical mj and taking other prescribed medications…and I guarantee you that if AA sobriety was defined as the absence of Xanax and Prozac, a whole lot of people would be resetting their sobriety dates…probably a lot of the same people who are up in arms about the pot smokers.
I have not used mj during my 5 yrs in recovery, because frankly, i don’t see myself getting to a lot of meetings, calling my sponsor, working with other alcoholics, etc. if i am baked all the time. and these are all things i need to do to treat my alcoholism….and therefore i see mj use as a threat to my sobriety from alcohol.
Also, i would not sponsor someone who is smoking mj and sober from alcohol, because i simply don’t have the experience of getting or staying sober from alcohol while smoking pot, and sponsorship in my opinion is taking someone throught the work the way i did it.
i also don’t know of anyone with long term sobriety who smokes pot (at least they aren’t telling me they do)
i think in the end…traditions Three and Ten apply…as well as “rigorous honesty” but this is indeed a hot controversial topic.
I have 1 year 6 months and 10 days without alcohol … I have been going to meetings the whole time … I currently attend 4 meetings a week, I have a sponsor, and I have worked the steps …. My life has improved in MANY ways…. I have also been smoking “medical” marijuana for this whole time … I do not go to meetings high, and work a good program … Friends in AA all say I am doing great, and bring up how I used to be 1+ years ago … AA is working for me … Nobody in AA knows about the MJ … I know what the response will be (contemt prior to investigation ??) … I have put in place my own “dont ask dont tell” policy … If someone asked me about it directly I would be honest, but I see no need to volunteer that information… I dont want to argue the merits of MJ good or bad … this is a choice I have made and am happy with … for me it comes down to 2 things …. 1) to thine own self be true and 2) the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking ….. Am I looking at this in a healthy light ??
I have been sober for 2 and a half years through the help of AA. I suffer from excruciating back pain. My options seem to be cortizone shots then surgery or heavy drugs which are habit forming among other side effects which I don’t want to live with. I haven’t smoked pot in some years but I know it to be a pain reliever as well as muscle relaxer. It seems like a resonable solution to me but without consulting my sponsor, I know what her reaction would be. I am interested in other anonymous opinions about marijuana green cards for the use in chronic pain.
Thank You
Your welcome Allan, pardon the dely in my response.
Yes, I know many AAs in my area, it is a sensitive subject, even dealing with it on a perscription level requires some tact, especially with in an AA Group here. My case is even more suspect as I persued expermentation to asses that I could use it safely and then persued a perscription. (mind you though I had 20 years of great sobriety before making the decision)
I recently had the good fortune though of speaking about my experiment with my old alcohol treatment counselor from 1988, he’s 36 years sober now. He expressed my movies were OK and pointed out that Bill Wilson founder of AA experimented with LSD in the 50s and he wasn’t compelled to take a drink. He agreed I should persue a perscription before discussing it with most AAs. All though Bill Wilson worked closely with the doctors on the matter he discontinued the research to calm controversy. The AA Publication “Pass it On” The Story of Bill Wilson and How The Message Reaced The World (see Chapter 23).
I have personally relate to a good deal to Bill’s story and his spiritual experiences. In The matter of LSD though I have not used this substence in sobriety, but at times the use of marijuana does mildly parallel. My objective is to be more available, present, not altered. With mild use I can go to an AA meeting and participate, when at times when in pain or fatigue I could hardly listen until the end of the meeting when it would subsided a little.
Anyway glad to sharing my experience. This could be passed on to an meeting with AA members who are dually diagnosed.
I would be glad to help and participate in a chat AA group on the matter. As I am here in Oregon. It would be a pleasure to visit with you and to continue to expanding our knowledge and perspective in helping people to cope with pain and illness in sobriety.
We still know only a little about Canibis and all it’s properties. The ancients (shamans) may hold some keys as well as future science.
It’s not so sticky really as we don’t need to tell all to everyone. When we do confession or the 5th step we go to a person who understands our condition (using discretion) and who will understand where we are coming from, yet be honest with us to help us discover our real motives.
Appreciating sobriety, gratitude and developing our spiritual life, release from dis-ease and being honest with ourselves. These are the qualities that transport us to a world of usefulness and a secure place in our family and community. We are restored to sanity.
Share this with all you feel could benefit and give them my email address. As my real name isn’t identified, I’m Anonymous.
I welcome anyone to contact me.
amaroq@cavenet.com
Thank you Dr. Frankel for your service, wisdom and openmindedness.
GA
Thank you so much for sharing. If you have read other comments to my blog, it is clear that there is a very large split in the AA community regarding this issue. I applaud what you are doing. It is sad in my opinion that the folks that “should” be the most open often become the most rigid. I understand and respect their position and how they run their lives and program.
However, this in no way, at least in my opinion, means that ALL of AA needs to be this way. I would be very interested in meeting with you – no charge. I am not sure what the need is in the community. Most importantly, we need to figure out how to keep this anonymous while patients are also going to other meetings. Sticky wicket, as they say.
I have 22 years of sobriety and I’m an avid aa member working the 12steps daily. 2 years ago I decided to take small dosages (half toke or less) as a means of testing my relief from back pain levels, and fatigue. It restores a fair amount of my energy, relaxes my back, back pops and it relaxes when I would normally have to meditate and use yoga for 2 or more hours. I do not volunteer my information with AAs who I know will only judge from their perspective, I attend 2 meetings a week and have a sponsor (have not volunteered my info yet due to prejudgementalism). I used it cosciously and I don’t like being stoned or even very high and I meditate with it as well (shorter periods). I have had periods of overuse quite unconfortable to me. I have identified the strains that work the best to be most effective with pain while minimal mind altering. I am ready to consider applying for a perscription after this use as I feel confortable with the light doses.
I have more experience to share if that may be of interest and I’m interested in meeting with others who are addicts who work a good program and have similar experiences.
Thanks for this forum. I look forward to your thoughts
Allan Frankel if you can connect me with some of the people you treat on the matter perhaps?
:)
GA
I know that and I agree with you. As a physician I view it a bit differently. I believe I have seen hundreds of patients in AA who use cannabis. They rarely run into one another and they rarely if ever bring it up. So, to begin with, the reality is that many people in AA are in fact using cannabis and just lie about it. In my opinion, Dr. Bill would have felt that if it is prescribed/ordered/recommended by a physician, that it was ok. AA has changed a lot. It helps millions of people, but I think in part it should return to it’s roots by rethinking whether any mind alteration is bad??
In my final analysis most problems come down to a choice between two imperfect options. I would just rather see a patient be “altered” by cannabis that “slip” in a big way. Tough problem.
I think it is a great idea but not for people who “abuse” Cannabis–not for medicinal means. It could definitely work for hardcore substance abuse including alcohol.
As a friend and family member of people in various stages of recovery, I feel I can offer some insight. Addicts for the most part are not addicted to the actual substance, but the way it makes them feel. Most recovering Alcoholics are hesitant to use painkillers such as Vicodin, as it can make you “high” or alter your state. That is why there is resistance from AA supporting medical marijuana; whether for recreation or medicine, it still alters states.